From Barkley Marathons to The Green Runners: A Manifesto for the Modern Athlete

Kamal Datta: Hey everyone, welcome back to What Runs a Run podcast and our special series on sustainability in 26.2. Today, we are expanding our definition of 26.2 quite a bit. Because when today's guest lines up for a run, 26 miles is just often a warm up. He's one of the UK's leading ultra runners, famous for his exploits on the 268-mile Penin Way. representing great betrayal in the world championships and taking on the mythical mud of the Berkeley marathons. But he's also a journalist, a coach, a father, and increasingly one of the most vocal advocates for ecological action within the running world. He is the co-founder of the Green Runners and the author of a book that every runner needs to read. We can't run away from this. Hall, welcome to the pod.

Damian: yikes, yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me on.

Kamal Datta: Great to have you here. We want to start with your recent, you know, iconic race or the most toughest race that people call it or it's been called now, the 2026 Berkeley experience. I know you had an opportunity to share your experience and it's all over the news, but the question I want to start with you, this is the third attempt you did. Why, Damian?

Damian: It just feels like the ultimate puzzle ⁓ in ultra running. ⁓ it's stating the obvious, but it's incredibly difficult. know, 20 finishes in 39 years of the race. It's it's really, really and I can't do it. So it's it's ⁓ that makes it really to me. So I suppose and and similar.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. Ha

Damian: I don't know, in my sort of 12 or 13 years in the sport, I've, you know, got a little bit obsessed with three or four different events, I suppose. And then, but then I can tell I've had my best run them. You know, example would be like the winter spine race or maybe UTMB. But the Barclay Marathons is just another level of difficulty because of the, yeah, because the amount of thinking you have to do really, when you're exhausted. ⁓ I'm not to that. ⁓ I'm fairly with being very exhausted, but you know, just following some flags or following a

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: line on my watch following a clear course, but the Barclay Marathons is not a clear course at all. It's sort of deliberately confusing and that's what trips me up really. So yeah, ⁓ I've had three goes and I feel very lucky to have had three goes because not many people do. They can only have 40 people each year. Yeah, I haven't been able to do it, so I'm still intrigued by It's a great puzzle.

Kamal Datta: It is indeed. watched the, and again, I think... I was the documentary on Berkeley. And then that's why I get a little bit of the loops and then the puzzle that it changes every year. But this year was a Valentine's Day massacre, they call it, right? The earliest start ever, some of the most treacherous slushy conditions in the race's history. And you're the last man standing on the course. And you return to the Yellow Gate without the pages at Loop 3, I think that's what in the news. There's also this concept that people, there are lot of pictures on the news that you're crossing the river barefoot and I don't want to share anything about it. And I don't know if there is any relationship to sustainability that you stand for, you running the river barefoot. And if there is, I'd be curious to hear about it.

Damian: ⁓ The truth is, the truth is ⁓ I was just so you can you can ⁓ usually could probably do a loop of the Barclay Marathons without getting your feet wet if you're careful, especially there's a water tunnel under the prison if it's not too if hasn't been raining too much, you can just about keep your feet dry and yeah, wet flea wet feet equals blisters at some point down the line. So if I'm gonna be out there for 59 hours, I want to reduce the chance of blisters. but there was a very slight, there was a change of camp this year, and it meant crossing a river ⁓ just before getting into camp. there was a perfectly good footbridge, but they told us that we wouldn't like the footbridge. So we were, we weren't allowed to use it. So basically, yeah, ⁓ I did first two loops kept my feet dry until a river just before camp.

Kamal Datta: ⁓ okay.

Damian: And it was like, I was going to use the same pair of shoes. And I was like, well, I want to keep my feet dry. So I just took my shoes off. And the third loop, we went the opposite direction. So I started the loop with barefoot. But yeah, just went through the river barefoot and then put my shoes on. Other runners were by then using plastic bags on their feet to try and keep their shoes and socks dry for that little bit. But yeah, no, there was no environmental message there. And also my shoes hadn't failed or anything like that. It maybe sounds a bit soft, but I was trying to keep my feet dry.

Kamal Datta: Okay. simple as it gets for sure. Did it help you though with your goal to keep your feet dry? It did? Okay.

Damian: Yeah, yeah, I think it did. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I did. I do do the same again. I do the same again. It's debate over the plastic bag. I mean, you could argue if you're being real sustainability pedant, that obviously using those plastic bags was only good if I suppose they reuse the same plastic bags that they made well off. I don't know. But yeah, no, I'd do that again. It only takes a minute to put my shoes on and off. Yeah, it was good fun. It was good fun. I think some

Kamal Datta: That's true, yeah.

Damian: People told me afterwards, yes, some internet rumours spread that I'd done the whole thing barefoot, which I can assure you I would not attempt and would not recommend.

Kamal Datta: That's true. think I have this question on the rapid fire round, but I'll ask you, and since you're talking about Berkeley, would you go for the fourth round?

Damian: It still feels like an itch I ⁓ need scratch. I do feel some guilt about flying there for, I guess, something I've already tried. But what I've done ⁓ is, a long ago, I pledged to only fly ⁓ once a year for maximum. actually, that, ⁓ in seven years, I've only flown three times.

Kamal Datta: and do. Yeah.

Damian: I don't feel like I've got like, you know, credits in the bank necessarily, but that's the only thing I've flown to in seven years. When I've gone to other races, you know, whenever, whenever reasonable, whenever practical, I've got public transport, ⁓ guess in Europe, that's big yeah, in Britain, Europe is yeah, it's fairly easy. don't know, easy not the right word. It hasn't always gone smoothly and it hasn't always been cheaper. But but yeah, you can get buses and trains to ⁓ most races in Europe. I've reduced my flying there. But yes, that's something to consider. But yeah, at the moment it's an itch ⁓ I like to scratch again if they'll let me in.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, and another part I'm curious, Damien, you mentioned a little bit that it requires tremendous amount of planning. think that is kind of the rubber meets the road, kind of this kind of a toughest phrase they call it. don't know if there is a... easy version of that you can share kind of a planning that you need to do before you start the loops versus a maybe a well planned ultra or any other road dress you may see the difference between those two.

Damian: What's really difficult about the Barclay Marathons is you can't go and recce outside of the race, you're literally not allowed. So you're allowed in the park, normally on the trails, but most of the route is off trail, I would say at least 80%, maybe even 90 % of the route is off trail and you're not allowed to go and check that out at all except during the race year round, not by the race, by the National Park, the Frozen Head State Park, sorry.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: yeah, you're not allowed off trail. You're not allowed there in the dark either. And then of course, the route changes most years as well. so it's kind of what can you do? but I think, yeah, what seasoned Barclay, ⁓ Barclay veterans as they're called, ⁓ is that you can do some research online. ⁓ can't give too much away. But yeah, there are ways to do some research. ⁓ ⁓ that's probably what anyone who a place in future should be doing before they go there. There are lots of films to watch now as well which are always going to be helpful even if really they're only filming from the same two places which is Camp and the Fire Tower slash Rat Jaw. They're the places you'll ever see in film ⁓ pretty much.

Kamal Datta: Go there. And I saw the prison and the bridge, or they call the, the prison, right? There's a little waterway, the tunnel. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Damian: the tunnel. Sorry, yeah, the prison does get filmed outside of the race. And that's partly because the morning before the race, yeah, Laz and now Carl does do a mini prison tour where the media, the media, I think, can go along and do a little bit of filming or photography. But they're not allowed to film during the race there. And they're not, yeah, they're not even allowed at the rapture or the fire tower. They're not even allowed there at dark. I think you're even meant to leave an hour before dark.

Kamal Datta: I see.

Damian: according to the state parks rules. yeah, it's hard. It's tricky for the media as well. But so they don't give, even though there are lots of Barkley films, it doesn't give much away in terms of the route. But if you watch them really, really carefully, you would pick up some useful information. there are other avenues out there without giving away too much.

Kamal Datta: No, that's good, I know that's why it's the mystery. That is the apple for lot of folks like you, I think you're gonna conquer it, right? That's the mystery part. wish you all the best if you're trying the fourth. I think it's by, okay, I'll not go more deep into how we get into the Berkeley, ⁓ yeah, ⁓ you all the best if you're attempting the next one, so. Cool, now switch a little bit about your ultra background. So you didn't start as a pro, you're a journalist who just fell into ultra running in your 30s, right?

Damian: Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it was. mean, looking back, I can see I was sort of heading that way. But it was still a bit of a sort of happy accident. And I mean, even now, yeah, I'm not I'm not a pro. I mean, I get a little bit of help. But I've got you know, I got a full time, full time job, I've got a family to support. And I guess that job is coaching coaching runners. ⁓ And I suppose, right, writing books or a bit of a bit of journalism still, but not much. So what happened was

Kamal Datta: I see. here.

Damian: Yeah, I started for half marathon locally, I just moved to the city of Bath in England, which has a really popular half marathon 30 40,000 people. I think I've no sorry, I think it's more like 12 15,000. Sorry. But that's quite big. You know, it's quite big here. And I loved it. I love the the event. I love the training as well. I can see now. And straight away thought I want to do more of this. So the next year, yeah, did it again. I was doing my first marathon. And I was pestering a magazine to let me write about my newfound love of running. And the magazine editor called my bluff and said, yes, but no. know, I'm to send you, I'm going to send you on your first ultra marathon. I want your story from that. And of course I sort of, had to say yes. I think, you know, I would have gravitated that way because I was beginning to hear ideas about these races and it was interesting to me. But I know anyone who did that. And I didn't, you know, I didn't know how you train or, know, and there was so

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Damian: this is 2012, you know, there's a lot less information around then. Hardly any podcasts, hardly any sort of Facebook groups, hardly books even. So it was quite, it was exciting. Well, exciting and daunting. And then when I did that ultra marathon, yeah, I just loved it. Obviously, it was uncomfortable. I hadn't really trained that well. But I just loved it. was the community, sense of community. It was the aid point, checkpoints. It was the sense it was, you know, on hills and on trails the sense of achievement. And yeah, I've been smitten ever since really, and just thought I want to do more of this.

Kamal Datta: So you went from a track to a 100 mile runner in two years, if I read it correct. And so what do you call the aha moment or ⁓ I got to do it kind of moment? Was there a moment?

Damian: Yeah, I think at the end of that first ultra, I was just like, wow, this hurts, but this is great. ⁓ And I'd heard of the cliche of like, at end of the first marathon, people often saying, you know, never again. And then of course, a week later, they're like, where can I sign up for the next one, you know, so we we all have that, ⁓ think that sort of ultra well, runners amnesia, where we simply forget that we didn't like it. And we just remember most of the good bits. I think was that first one is the first one.

Kamal Datta: Okay. and see. Yeah, Signing out.

Damian: And then yeah, the next year I was doing my first 100k and the first 100 mile of that next year 2013. And then early 2014, I was doing my first spine race, which is 268 miles. So yeah, so I really escalated things quickly and I wouldn't always recommend people did that. I went up that fast necessarily, but I just had a strong sense of curiosity. guess I had, I did have a coach. I did get a coach quite early, almost accidentally. I met someone who was a coach, but that probably did help me.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Damian: but I also, yeah, was I was fairly fit anyway, even though was new to running. I was still playing, I would have been playing a lot of football, I was doing a lot of trekking as well. So I did have some fitness from that. yeah, yeah, it's been yeah, kind of a life life changing journey, really.

Kamal Datta: I see. Now that's amazing, that's amazing for sure. Now how does having a non-running background help you see the sports flaws clearly than someone who grew up in the system? Because we are getting to probably, you know, the sound areas you are passionate about. Yeah.

Damian: Well, that's to tell now because I've been in so deep for a decade. I ⁓ mean, early on, I still can remember being a bit horrified by, I guess, those city races, just the amount of plastic bottles on the floor. That was unsettling. And if the truth is, I was doing the same. I was of trying to drink as much as I could of a bottle and then chucking it because that's what everyone else was doing, but feeling uncomfortable about it and kind of thinking,

Kamal Datta: That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Damian: do you know, this seems like quite a lot of waste of plastic, you know, I definitely remember, I remember that I remember that. But after that, I was probably in in, I mean, and I can see now there's like so much, I suppose so much kit and so much kit waste and so much over consumption with the with the kit, but I don't know if I noticed that early on. I didn't really know that was a problem early on. So maybe some of that came to me later, actually. was some friends of mine, Dan Lawson and his wife Charlotte, who formed a company called Rerun Clothing. And they were talking a lot about the waste, especially the free t-shirts at races and the trainers. They were talking about that a lot. And that really made me, my ears prick up and pay attention. That was, I don't know what year that was, but that was more like sort of 2018, 2019.

Kamal Datta: I see.

Damian: That was probably a bigger moment actually of, you know, actually there's a lot of waste in this industry, a lot of over consumption. Yeah, yeah.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, so let's transition to the one. So I have your book that I've been reading for last a couple of weeks. I'm still not through, but this has been. I eye opening and I felt depressed myself. I think you call it out the first chapter itself that yeah, you'll not feel good after reading this book, but I do because you did a tremendous effort to actually.

Damian: It's a hard read. Thanks for trying. Yes.

Kamal Datta: layout as it is, of, it's the bare truth. And then I think it's a book, it's a must read guess, anyone in the industry, or maybe not anyone not in the industry, because it's kind of applicable to a lot of areas, but for runners specifically for sure. it, frankly speaking, changed the conversation for lot of people, right? It pretty much audited the sport of running. I am just curious, was there a specific race you saw the plastic, I think you mentioned the bottles that you saw in the city races, where you said, no, I can't keep doing this old way. There has to be some better way.

Damian: I mean, I mean, another race, I like it, Philip, I feel a bit unfair sort of. picking on races too much, but suppose, and I have done lots of races and I've flown around the world to do races before was really aware of my footprint. ⁓ I remember, another one, and I don't mean to be too mean about them, ⁓ but marathon de Sable, yeah, mean, almost everyone flies out to Morocco and then...

Kamal Datta: Sure, sure. Cheers.

Damian: Yeah, there are sort of helicopters there and that there's just a lot of resources used to sort of, it's weird, a lot of resources used to make quite well off people feel like they're poor. sort of queuing for bottles of water in the desert, almost ⁓ a refugee situation ⁓ sort of sleeping in open sided tents. It weird because we've paid money to live sort of less well than we can, ⁓ which maybe something, you know, typical about ultra running that...

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: what we're doing. and there were a lot of, yeah, there were helicopters and a lot of helicopters and a lot of, a lot of jeeps and, and often they're just moving the camp, what felt like only sort of five kilometres away overnight. That don't mean to jump on them because it's a ⁓ really gateway race for a lot of people actually. ⁓ But I start, I guess then I was also looking at the sort of, you know, has quite, seemed to have quite a big footprint. ⁓

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Damian: But usually for race, actually, it's the spectator, sorry, the participants travel that is the thing. But then what happened more lately after we'd formed the Runners was I suppose started to notice the sports washing in our sport. And worse in other sports like, you know, football, cycling, golf. from what I can gather. And basically, we're talking about, I suppose, high carbon companies or industries that do harm, and they're trying to gain social acceptance by saying, no, no, because we do some good things over here that we give some money, you know, which is, is to, well, pull the wool over our eyes or distract us from the great harm they're doing. I didn't really, I wasn't really aware that that was in the running world. I thought we're too sort of too niche or too, especially in trail running. But then I was chatting to a group called Badvertising and they had formed this game changer sponsorship pledge to sort of try and get rid of, you know, high carbon sponsors in sports actually, in all of sport. And just as they, you know, just after we'd chatted to them, I noticed, yeah, one of our biggest races, UTMB had a new high carbon sponsor and it was like, hold on. Now, ⁓ yeah, we had some success protesting about that and discussions with them as well to their credit. They did reach out to us to have a chat. ⁓

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Damian: are no longer with that sponsor. But certainly in America, lots of the big road marathons have high carbon sponsors. yeah, to that feels inappropriate. ⁓ Because ultimately, air pollution is of the biggest killers of the world already. And they're contributing even more to that air pollution, yet saying, ⁓ no, we're supporting health and running. You know, they're not, they're kind of killing us ⁓ knowingly. So

Kamal Datta: That's true.

Damian: Yeah, I guess that and that's the thing that frustrates me the most nowadays. It's not you know, it's not an individual's footprint pun pun not intended. co2 footprint and that idea was invented by a PR firm advising ⁓ you know, it was created, you know, as ⁓ distraction for all of us. Not that we shouldn't, you know, not that it's totally irrelevant. ⁓ And interesting to look at your own footprint, but that shouldn't be the

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Damian: know, that shouldn't be the biggest thing. really, it's yeah, it's the sports washing that frustrates me the most when when these big industries, yeah, come and try and use the health, the health and the good and the adventure and the good, the really good things about running, and they try and jump on that and use it for themselves. And I think that's that's that's horrible. ⁓ that yeah, that frustrates me the most.

Kamal Datta: I definitely want to double click on that your transition from looking for, ⁓ out for how we can help with the individual footprint, carbon footprint to a systemic change that I think you are ⁓ gradually over the years. But that, I think I want to dig a little bit on the... four pillars of the Green Runners. I think it probably laid out beautifully on this book and to a lot of degrees. And I was surprised to see my cotton t-shirt or my race t-shirt, I get how much carbon footprint it has. it's like, and I pretty much not getting any more t-shirt since I read this book the last couple of weeks, whatever it is, I signed up. But if you want to walk us through this four pillar, the framework you have for the Green Runners, that'd be great.

Damian: Yeah, thank you. So when was it? We're three, we might even be nearly four years old now. When was it? Maybe 2021, 2022. There were a group of us who I guess runners who were concerned, know, interested in the fact we're going, you know, in a climate sort of emergency, including Jasmine Paris, who hopefully people have heard of and Dan Lawson, who I mentioned.

Kamal Datta: Yes, yes.

Damian: And just, someone had the idea of why don't we just form like a club? And it was like, okay, like, you know, ⁓ group, you know, and that suddenly made loads of sense. we launched, but we, it was kind like, what do we stand for? ⁓ what do have to do to be a member kind of thing? And put it, you know, we came down with, we came up with four pillars, and three of them are an individual foot pin element. And it's the three areas that will will cause the most emissions, which is your travel, your kit, and your fueling, kind of what you eat. But the fourth one is the one I think is the most important actually, and that is speaking up. that, so really, that's not a sort of reduction of your own footprint. Obviously, that's more of a pushing for either collective action or systemic change, but having the courage. This comes from professors, know, Professor Catherine Hayhoe. is Canadian, but I believe works in America. says that's the number one thing we can do is, know, talk, you know, talk about stuff, make it normal. Make it normal conversation. So yeah, speaking up, having the courage to talk about things, whether it's with your friends or family, or maybe online or in your local running club. And you might even be saying anything profound, you might not be saying, you know, we must change all these things, you might just bring it up.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Damian: might just be a much smaller matter or that you've reconsidered your travel or something but it's talking about it I think is yeah the number one thing well Professor Katherine Hayhoe thinks is the number one thing we can do so yeah and to join the Green Runners all you have to do is make a well there's a small financial contribution which goes to some of our costs and we have two sort of permanent part-time working very hard for us ⁓ but you just have to make one pledge against the four pillars

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Damian: your own of your own choosing so it doesn't even have to be especially radical it doesn't you don't you know you don't have to turn vegan or give up flying all together or have a stupid haircut like mine it's just ⁓ thinking of something that you're willing to do and and and then you're welcome yeah everyone's everyone's welcome

Kamal Datta: No, thank you. Thank you. Now let's talk about literally your transition from individual action to systemic change. So you have moved beyond the plugin, which is speaking of letter as a term, I think nowadays pretty much getting a lot of popularity. are now talking about systemic change, challenging the oily money in sport. Last year, I believe ⁓ at tour day, ⁓ giant I think I'm sure I don't know sure if I'm saying it right you protested for QAnon okay you protested for sponsorship at the finish line why is it more important to change the sponsor than to change the medal

Damian: Tour de géant. that just has far more emissions basically than you know creating a medal or even a t-shirt was t-shirt was it 12 shoes anyway i remember the shoes is about 14 on average 14 tons was it i might have to double check it's been a while since i read it's been a while since i read the book but but yeah the the the industry like a car industry or a car manufacturer ⁓

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: as you might imagine, just has uncalculably larger emissions footprint than creating one t-shirt or one medal. ⁓ what's for us. Sorry, go on if you found it.

Kamal Datta: So. Sorry, Dinter, but I have page number 19 on your book. A typical pair of running shoes creates between eight to 16 kilograms of CO2 emission. So between eight and 16 kilograms. Yeah, that's a big number for sure. A of shoes, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Damian: 14 kilograms Okay, yeah. Yeah, it is fairly big. but actually, it's only similar to maybe like sort of a car journey in England from like London to Glasgow, which would be about like a six, maybe six hour car journey, like on your own on your own. ⁓ not saying, you know, that we should be frivolous with that. But like, and then you think about a whole massive, huge company creating cars non stop ⁓ the emissions that they use to create the cars, but then also that they ⁓

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: those cars will carry on if they have fossil fuel vehicles ⁓ or ICE vehicles. will carry on for another 20 years, if they're locked into fossil fuel emissions when scientists are screaming at us for a transition away from ⁓ fossil fuels. fossil fuels the biggest problem. So yeah, and also do all increasingly now, I'm not necessarily talking about greenwashing, but... you often see a race saying, oh, we've reduced the plastic, we've cut down on the free t-shirts, we've reduced it in plastic bottles. And yeah, great. But then they might have a sponsor, you know, who's a high carbon sponsor. And it's like, unfortunately, your good work there just looks like greenwashing because you're promoting and you're allowing, or at least you're allowing an industry to use you to promote themselves, presumably because they've given you a fair bit of money for you, but it's probably not much for them. You know, that the harm there, both sort of actual emissions, but also the perception, you the social perception of it just so huge compared to, ⁓ know, reducing a few plastic bottles ⁓ or a few t shirts, or So yeah, it's almost uncalculable difference. So, but what find is some people just are much happier.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Damian: doing the smaller stuff. what we found in races when we've looked into it and when I looked into the book was some of them just didn't ⁓ where the big areas were. But then also sometimes it's easier to tackle the sort of tangible, the visible stuff like rubbish. You mentioned plugging, which picking up litter as you go, which I think most of us do anyway when we're out the trails as it is. that's a bit easier because you see it and you can just easily. sort it out, whereas, you know, it's a much bigger problem to, I suppose, tackle these, these industries and these companies ⁓ are not transitioning nearly quickly enough ⁓ ⁓ our sport. yeah, hopefully that's a clear explanation of, yeah, ⁓ big differences there is just, yeah, it's huge.

Kamal Datta: No, thank you. What is screen washing for our audience so that they understand what does it mean?

Damian: Ah, yes, a sports washing is more and it doesn't it sports washing isn't always just environmental either. But it's it could be a nation state perhaps that has a bad human rights record that might come in by a football club, which we're seeing in the Premier League quite a lot and other leagues. That sports washing that they're trying to sort of say, no, we do lots of harm. But actually, look, we're doing a little bit of Look at a little bit of good we do not not be all the harm. So that's sports washing green washing. and sometimes it might be accidental, but we think it's usually deliberate. It's like, I guess it's carrying on as before, but making some tiny changes and then saying it's saying so sportswear brand would say, well, the classic thing with footwear actually is is some of our shoe 20 % of our shoe is made from plastic from the ocean. In fact, yeah, Adidas ⁓ have this, I don't mind saying they're the second biggest sportswear brand in the world. And they for quite a few years, they were like, we were using recycled plastic from the ocean in our shoes. And it would often only be 10. I can't remember the percentages, but not a huge amount. And then ⁓ a documentary over here on channel four looked into it. And often that plastic wasn't coming from the ocean at all. And also, there's whole debate in my book about relying on recycled plastic, actually, then you're, then you actually need the plastic in the first place, ⁓ and need that in just creating the plastic to create your product. So that's good.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right.

Damian: And actually there was a shortage of it after a while because so many people were using it. So they want to carry on not just with their profits, but expanding their profits and getting more and more over consumption. So they're making more and more things, more and more things telling us you need the new thing, you need the new thing, you need the new thing. When often it's almost no different to the previous one, it might even just be a different color, right? you need more, you need more, you need more. So over consumption is what they want. They want the profit profit. But say, look, we made the shoelace. has some recycled plastic in, so we're being sustainable. So I guess that would be a sort of classic of greenwashing. Yeah, so a deliberate sort of, want to carry on, make loads and loads, but look, there's a tiny bit of recycled, you there. So yeah, that's, ⁓ we that all around us. And some of it might be accidental. Some of the events, for example, I think some of them just didn't realize, you know, they want to introduce the plastic and that, you know, it's good to reduce plastic, ⁓ but didn't realize that wasn't the biggest thing, I suppose.

Kamal Datta: I see. Now, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Yeah. I see, I see. Now let's talk about the business of Damian Hall. In 2025, U and parted ways after eight years of partnership. That's a massive professional risk. Was it a specific moment of misalignment or a realization that you couldn't be the green runner while being paid by a brand that didn't share your timeline for change? Now let's talk about the business of Damian Hall. Was it a specific of misalignment or a realization that you couldn't be the green runner while being paid by a brand that didn't share your timeline for change?

Damian: Oh, what a question. I want to be diplomatic about Innovate because they did support me for eight or nine years. And all this time, the way, I've never been like a full-time athlete. I've frequently had some help, I've always needed to work as well. yeah, Innov 8 were very good to me over the years. I want to be diplomatic about Innovate because they did support me for eight or nine years. yeah, Innov 8 were very good to me over the years.

Kamal Datta: sure. sure.

Damian: But I did leave them what year and a half ago. Yeah, I think we had different ideas. I mean, there is an element of, I think wanting your cake and we have a phrase over here, which is a bit of a silly one. You want to have your cake and eat it, which of course, why would you have a cake if you didn't want to eat it? But I did leave them what year and a half ago. Yeah, I think we had different ideas. We had different ideas of what an ambassador would do is probably the best way to say it. I'm Yeah, there is an element of I can expand on that a bit. I mean, there is an element of, I think wanting your cake and we have a phrase over here, which is a bit of a silly one. You want to have your cake and eat it, which of course, why would you have a cake if you didn't want to eat it?

Kamal Datta: too. too.

Damian: But there's a phrase here of almost like you want things. And ⁓ can it might look like, I want to be a sponsored athlete because I want to be the best athlete I can be. But I also don't really want to be part of the overconsumption machine. I don't want to be saying, look, this, buy this, look, everyone, buy this. ⁓ And I mean, some people might say, well, you can't have both. I guess been trying to show that you sort of can, or that there's a big area in between where you could be And ⁓ I can see it might look like, I to be a athlete I want to be the best athlete I can be. But I also don't really want to be part of the overconsumption machine. I don't want to be saying, look, this, buy this, look, everyone, buy this. ⁓ And I mean, some people might say, well, you can't have both.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Damian: a fairly responsible ambassador certainly with my sponsors, NNormal, for example, Killian Jornet heads them up and people like Dakota Jones are involved and I believe they're showing. Yeah, showing a responsible I think that's a really good word. we're just being well, we're being reasonable and we're being responsible. We're not giving everything up. You know, we still want I still desperately want to see Killing Jornet. You know, if he said I'm not going to fly anymore, I'm not going to do any races, you know, I'd be gutted. I, know, I love seeing what he could do. And that would be a shame for the sport, right? We still want elite sport. I'm going off for a bit of a tangent here. But yeah, but normal. Yeah, there's no direct pressure to we're just being we're being reasonable and we're being responsible. We're not giving everything up. We still want elite sport. promote them, which actually makes me think, ⁓ I like these guys. I want to help them promote them. yeah, I just want to be, and I appreciate when I do something and most of my photos, I'm wearing their equipment. So of course, I'm not going to pretend I'm not promoting them. But yeah, I'm very reluctant to say, hey, everyone, buy this, buy this, buy this, unless I've used it for a good amount of time, and I truly believe in it. And they're amazing with that. Yeah, there's no direct pressure to promote products.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: And that's probably, hopefully I've I think I've explained, yes, explained things well there.

Kamal Datta: No, thank you. Now, flip ⁓ of this is like, ⁓ know, you're a professional athlete. How do you survive actually as a pro athlete in 2026 when you're vetting yourself out of... kind of most traditional sponsorship right in this kind of your principle or your misalignment or you found what you just shared with NNormal and normal kind of that's kind of the future of sponsorship looks like.

Damian: yikes. don't know what the future sponsorship looks like. But normal, yeah, I think they are showing a new way to do things. ⁓ they're not perfect. ⁓ know, I've Zoom calls with them where they say, look, no, and that my book says the same, no sports where brand is sustainable, really, because we don't need, we certainly don't need this many. And we didn't necessarily need a new one. But they are saying, think, new high watermarks on ⁓

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: trying to do the absolute best they can but the number one thing probably is making less you know so right they are bringing out some new things sometimes but if you look at their range like it's actually really small compared to most brands i'm sure over time they'll expand it a bit but they really are concentrating on durability things that last and their shoes genuinely are impressive on that on that level they really you know they're really lasting me a long time and anyone can look at my Strava and i i'm quite careful to kind of log the miles on them

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. I see.

Damian: And I have not got through a pair of shoes yet in sort of like 15, 16 months of theirs. There's probably one pair almost on the way out, like, and I can get them resold, I believe. So yeah, I believe in them. I think they're doing the best of a tricky, you know, a tricky industry. But in terms, yeah, in terms of the future of, yeah, I don't know. I mean, maybe it takes more people to push back against sponsors and say, actually, I'm

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: promoting less or, but I have found, and yeah, I've got a load of sort of, what would you call, I suppose, ancillary sponsors perhaps, or ⁓ of smaller sponsors who, you know, might just give me a free product once or twice a year, for example. And I have pushed back on all of them over time. I'm often quite pleasantly surprised by what they're doing, but they don't necessarily ⁓ want to make song and dance about it until they're perfect. There's sometimes a fear of sort of, I guess being accused of greenwashing, suppose, or being told, ⁓ yeah, but you do this. like to think we're past that, hopefully past that point of just pointing fingers ⁓ at people who are trying to do things. I think it's usually quite obvious now when a brand isn't trying and when don't even have a sustainability policy on the website, for example, ⁓ they're ⁓ behind the curve there. ⁓

Kamal Datta: See you

Damian: But yeah, I don't know what the future holds, hopefully it's, hopefully my dream would be that I suppose, yeah, people are only promoting things they ⁓ confident in that they have good credentials, that they're gonna last for starters and that they're made well and they're good products and there's not, ⁓ and lessen this over consumption crisis. try and lessen this consumption crisis.

Kamal Datta: Do you think you're close or closer to have a thousand mile shoe or beyond in this regard?

Damian: Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, no. What's the longest mine I've done? Yeah, no, I've done some thousand mile shoes. Yeah, trail shoes. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Now it does depend. It's an interesting topic this. But yeah, in my book, yeah, I talk about how a lot of brands were saying, oh, you need to throw your shoe away after 300 miles. And you're like, what? And that is part of the problem. You know, people throwing away perfectly good things and that stuff is, you know, it's made of oil.

Kamal Datta: ⁓ you did, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Damian: So it's not going anywhere, anywhere soon. It's, you know, it's, ⁓ so yeah, I've got some friends who are sort of quite competitive about it, especially the green runners actually, how long they can make them last. ⁓ now it does depend on the, it depends on the shoe in the first place. It depends on the terrain, depends on your, your body composition, your running technique, what you're using them for. You know, for example, if it's a purest trail shoe, you run on the road a lot, it's going to wear out sooner, you know. I, and I have.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: had certain shoes where I've really made them last and then another runner said to me actually I can't make that one last so there's a difference somewhere between the way we run or what we run on although yeah shoes injuring you is definitely overhyped there be a point where a shoe is you know maybe better for well for starters should be relegated to kind of the one hour run and then maybe after that it's the gardening shoe or the dog walk shoe So yeah, I mean, have a little bit of care in terms of, you know, is your foot still feeling sort of safe and protected on long runs, for example, maybe on roads or whatever. But yeah, no, I've had some shoes that have gone 200 miles, sorry, 1000 miles. ⁓ I'm trying to think now I'd have to go and check my Strava again to see what's to where the normal ones are. But yeah, yeah, and it just it is multi multi sort of factorial but ⁓

Kamal Datta: ⁓ wow.

Damian: Yeah, that's definitely happening.

Kamal Datta: That's good to know. Because I was, after reading the book, was looking at my 2018 when I ran the Boston. I still have the pair of shoes. I was happy that I did not donate it somewhere and end up being in a landfill. So I'm still using it for casual going out or some activities. So I still have it though. I feel like I can run with it anymore because I've pretty much worn out the bottom of it, the cushioning part. But I was happy to see that I'm stretching it as much as I can. Yeah, yeah.

Damian: ⁓ nice.

Kamal Datta: Now let's switch gear to your new book, The Run Forever, coming up next month.

Damian: Good work. Yes. I turned, yeah, I turned 50 a few months ago and ⁓ approaching 50 I was, thank you, thank you, thank you. And guess, yeah, because I came to running late and I, like I say, I guess, yeah, ⁓ not a, I've never been a professional runner, but I guess you possibly could say I was, or hopefully just about an elite runner.

Kamal Datta: ⁓ belated happy birthday. Yeah, it's a big number. Yeah.

Damian: I did, you know, represented my country once and that was at 40. And then I've still won races last year. I still went to my two main races at 49. I could sense, you know, I was just feeling a bit more tired. I could sense my top speed isn't what it was. but as yeah, as a, as a coach and as an athlete, I was, I'm fascinated in what's happening to me. what could I, what training or lifestyle things can I do to sort of slow down any decline or even pause it or even reverse it. So I've really been looking into that for the last year or two. And essentially, yeah, that's what this book is about is how can runners in their sort of 40s, 50s, 60s carry on running, well, the title says running forever, that might not be legally binding, but carry on running strongly into your sort of midlife, middle years. And...

Kamal Datta: I see.

Damian: Yeah, there was some bad news and some good news the very succinct summary.

Kamal Datta: That's great. know most runners are terrified getting older because, you know, with age that comes with its own challenges. What is the forever secret? Is it the vegan diet, the strength work, or just a refusal to grow up? I think you mentioned there are positive sides. There the other side also that you mentioned in the book, I'm sure. I'll leave it up to the folks to find out, but what you can share.

Damian: Yeah. Yeah, it's not one thing. But I would say, yeah, there are several things I could mention. But that's really interesting that you alluded to, yeah, your mindset. I would almost, I mean, there are some really robust studies actually on on how important your mind is to aging. ⁓ And not like we can't pretend we're still 20. But if you think, well, I'm old, and I can't run very well anymore, and you run less. ⁓ And you stop to

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Damian: know, start eating less well, maybe start drinking less well, you exercise less, you stop doing your strength work. Yeah, like ⁓ changes are going to accelerate. And are studies that show people who behaved like they were younger, like them younger, their younger selves, genuinely had physiological kind of reversals in a good way. Like, even eyesight better in this, this, this crazy study, where people ⁓ were told live were They moved into a place that made like The news was 10 years ago, the sporting events, the magazines, the books, was all the music was all 10 years earlier. ⁓ those people were told to live as if they were in that decade. they, and they physically, they started improving. They were, they were all older, older people, but they, their eyesight improved their, their dexterity improved. so there is, all right, we, yeah, we can't pretend we're 20, but if we tell ourselves, you know, I'm still, I can still be the best runner I can be today.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Damian: ⁓ I'll never be as fast. One good line I got in the book actually from a runner was I'll never be as fast as I am today. you know, make the most of today. And, ⁓ so I think there is a huge, if there is one thing, maybe it is the mindset thing. if very briefly, if it's a training thing, then it's firstly, don't stop, carry on, carry on training. And then secondly, it's run, keep running fast as well. Keep, cause your VO2 max is what deteriorates quickest and earliest. So, and it won't

Kamal Datta: Yes. Yeah. Mmm.

Damian: once you've let it go, know, you can't it's like swimming upstream. If you don't swim for a few strokes, you won't get back to where you were. So keep doing the fast stuff, keep doing the fast stuff. ⁓ also, please definitely do strength work. There so many health benefits even outside of running of doing strength work. Honestly, it your metabolism, ⁓ even you your disease resistance. Studies are showing you know, people with better grip strength are living longer. Even

Kamal Datta: Mm. Mm-hmm.

Damian: must the size of your leg muscles it correlates with cognitive health later in life so ⁓ there are so many reasons for doing strength work not least it will make you the best runner you can be as well and keep you yeah injury ⁓ can't you can't be totally injury proof but injury more injury resistant so there are so many reasons to be doing that so yes there's there's some things there that people can can think about

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Right. No, thanks for sharing and looking forward to and best of luck for your book. And I'm sure it will be as valuable as other books that you have written. So let's go into our rapid fire. I call it the green rapid fire round. And some of the question may be a little challenging in a sense from your background. Let's start with carbon plated shoes. Should he bend them for the waste they create?

Damian: Thank you. Yes. Do you more? I think I definitely think it's not necessarily the carbon element. But definitely, I think again, I think unfortunately, it was Adidas again, who brought out like an almost a single use shoe a couple of years ago, that was designed to be worn for one marathon. I think that's pretty shameful. And again, that's the same company. Remember, we're talking about who we're like, ⁓ we're we're sustainable, because we had a bit of recycled plastic in one of our shoes. And yet they'll do that. So yeah, what you know.

Kamal Datta: Alright, that's it. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Damian: Yeah, that is not okay. That is not okay.

Kamal Datta: The next one, marathon or any other ⁓ evergreen status, greenwashing or great progress.

Damian: I think, yeah, it's important to, it's important for events to be, yeah, I suppose, analyzing what they could do better. And I must say, I do know someone, you know, right in the heart of London Marathon, and I know she's doing a lot of good work. And sometimes it takes time. And sometimes you have to change, you know, change minds of people ⁓ and change the way a whole way an industry might work. But I know, I know they are doing a lot of good things. But you are, you know, you are right at times. they've, you know, they've gone for the sort of, plastic reduction. And sometimes, you know, some of the wider problems haven't been addressed, such as, you know, elite athlete travel, and I do go into that in the book, but they are doing they are are they are confronting those sorts of things now. So and it's important because in Britain anyway, London Mathen is the is the is the industry leader. But yes, I believe in them. I believe in them.

Kamal Datta: That's good to hear. And I talked to Kate and Kate also connected us for sure. So yeah, that's good to hear. And she'd be very happy to hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Damian: ⁓ good. Yeah. No, Kate, she is amazing. But sometimes sometimes changes takes time, but she's really, yeah, she really sticks with it. And she really is changing things. Yeah, she's amazing.

Kamal Datta: So I know you mentioned a little bit about how many times you fly for a race. So ⁓ next question is related to that. Should runners be limited to one ⁓ required race every five years?

Damian: don't feel I'm in the place to say that because I've most of the races around the world I've wanted to do and ⁓ a of them involved a flight. So I don't think it's fair for me to point fingers and go, ⁓ the rest of you shouldn't. I think is up to individual, at the moment it's up to individuals. I do wonder elite sport whether there's a ⁓ case for almost a carbon budget. It would have to be different for different sports because sports are so different and some have international calendars, global international calendars. But yes, often in sport it is the international calendar that could be rethought, thought about more cleverly, that would actually reduce a lot of emissions. Essentially, trying to reduce the flights. So I don't think we're at that point. I don't think we're at the point yet where...

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Damian: runners should be told only one in five. No, I don't think they were there yet. But I suppose, and do think again, the onus is often put on the runners, whereas there are certain race series that really encourage flights. And I think they're the ones who should be thinking more about what they're doing or not doing. ⁓ I mean, the worst example is that seven continents in seven ⁓ marathons, contests, seven days. ⁓

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. I see. Yeah, seven days, yeah.

Damian: which I don't mind calling them out and saying, you know, that race shouldn't happen anymore. That's incredibly sort of, ⁓ what's the word? There's a word a bit like luxurious, isn't there? That's also ⁓ It's going escape me. yeah, indulgent. Yeah, it's beyond indulgent. I think that one shouldn't exist ⁓ unfortunately. So I think could look more about race series and what could they do better sometimes. Like, you know, the Abbots major marathons, what could they do? ⁓ to maybe, I don't know the answer, ⁓ are they thinking about? What are they doing? ⁓ Yes.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, yeah. I'm looking at your book and car, faffle, fuck. That's the word. I think it's that it's made up. What does it mean?

Damian: kerfufflefuck. yeah, we have a word over here which I like is kerfuffle, which means it's a bit of an old fashioned word, but I guess it means kind of a bit of a mess or a bit of a mistake, a bit of a kerfuffle. Oh, I got into a bit of a kerfuffle in the shops. You you drop some coins on the floor, I suppose. But I suppose So I guess I was trying to come up with a new term for, I guess, climate, climate change, climate breakdown, our ecological and climate crisis. ⁓ And I just thought it was a fun combination of like a sort of sort of harmless friendly word that implies mistake with a lot more aggressive, impactful word. So, yeah, they just sort of fell together and ⁓ I forgot about that, actually. Yeah, thought hopefully that both had the combination of almost

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Damian: making people chuckle, not shocking or surprising people, I suppose. ⁓

Kamal Datta: Yeah, and I definitely chuckled when I read the word and then you explained a little later and then it made total sense. That's you, you know, phrase that coined that phrase, Damian, thank you so much for being the annoying conscience for all of us, or for the running world, ⁓ all together. And to our listeners, you can find Damien's new book Run Forever, hopefully very soon. And the challenge for the listeners, go to thegreenrunners.com and make a pledge at that thing, as Damien mentioned in any of the four pillars that you can choose. And then share what you are tackling first. And thank you so much, Damian, for joining in Sustainability in 26.2 Series. it has been a... conversation for me to learn so many things about your passion and about and what you stand for and the courage that you are driving towards even your decisions in the last couple of years for sure speaks for itself. So thank you so much.

Damian: Wow, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you for having me on. Thank you for discussing this. Yeah, thank you for all the great work you do.