The Science of Running: Greg Macmillan on Personalized Training

Kamal Datta: Hey everyone, welcome to What Runs a Run podcast and it's a coaching and nutrition mini-series. Today we are joined by a man who has been called one of the best and smartest distance coaches in America. He is an exercised physiologist, a national champion runner, and the creator of world famous Macmillan running calculator. Greg Macmillan, welcome to the pod.

GReg: Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

Kamal Datta: Cool, so before you go dive into your coaching side, I want to hear a little bit about your personal story, getting you are today. I mean, you obviously have a lot of accolades and the numbers speak for itself, but if you want to share a little bit about your background.

GReg: Sure. Well, I was really lucky. I grew up in rural Tennessee, so I was very active growing up. And then that kind of translated in being a good runner because we ran and walked everywhere. And then ran in high school. And that's where I really caught the running bug. My whole life was became cross country in track and field in high school. That's what I really enjoyed. And because I was so interested in it and ended up being state champion. So ⁓ you know, I having success, but I really wanted to study how to improve your performance. So that's what I studied in college. When I ran in college, I studied kinesiology in my undergrad because I was interested in injury prevention, sort of anatomy and biomechanics. then I studied exercise physiology ⁓ my graduate degree because I thought, well, let's study the engine now. ⁓ figure out how the engine works. So really, ⁓ you it was so,

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: inspiring to me to run and to have this success and I just wanted to know more and more about it. And then luckily when you're studying, if you're a pretty good runner and you're studying those things, people start asking you advice, right? And so I didn't set out to be a coach, but people would ask me what I was studying and I was happy to share. And then they'd ask me for a workout and then a training plan and suddenly they called me coach. So that's kind of how it got started was just this super active

Kamal Datta: Right, right.

GReg: ⁓ growing up and I was very good at most sports and then just following in love with running in high school. I was super lucky to have a great coach team and that just set up what ultimately I've continued to do my entire life which is just live talk running, study running, help others.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. That's great. Thanks for sharing, Greg. Now, you have coached everyone from first timers to Olympians. So before you dive into the specifics of different levels, what would be the one golden rule that applies to every single person who laces up their shoes? What do you think?

GReg: I think the main thing is you have to start where you are and you have to build more gradually than you want. That's what we see all the time, no matter the level, is if you start training too much, too soon, too often, you're going to get injured. We see it with new runners, right? They fall in love with the sport and then three months into it, they get their first injury. We see it at the Olympic level where they're just pushing the envelope so much.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

GReg: So that's really, I think the core is that you have to train in a way that you can keep training because the benefits of running come after weeks, weeks, weeks, months, months, months, and ultimately years of training. So you're trying to limit those interruptions. So it doesn't matter if it's a new runner or at the Olympic level, I'm all about, we have to train at a level where we can keep training.

Kamal Datta: That's great. Now I'm very curious because as I looked into your kind of the core philosophy, this concept of experiment one that I think you often call. I wonder, I think everything is independent of what level the person is, right? Either it's a beginner or an Olympic athlete. How does that experiment of one that you want people to take away?

GReg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's really something that I wasn't aware of early on. And it wasn't until I started coaching a real wide range of runners and a lot of them that I started seeing that two people, even at the same performance level. So on paper, they seem like these are the exact same runners. would perform better in sort of ⁓ continuous running. That's where they would have their best workouts.

Kamal Datta: Mm. Mm-hmm.

GReg: And then the other would do better when we were doing short, fast repetition workouts. And I thought, ⁓ this is really curious. is doing better at this, one's not. And it was confusing to the athletes, right? Cause they trained together and then ⁓ of them is better in one workout and not as good in the other. So I sort of ⁓ into my study of exercise physiology and said, okay, there's some really minute stuff going on ⁓ each person.

Kamal Datta: I see. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

GReg: that makes training work for you better or less good. that's really, it formed the basis of my book, You Only Faster, where I talk about learning about yourself. Are you more the endurance type person? Are you more the speedster type person? And how you can manipulate your training so it fits you better. Because obviously if you're doing training that is not your forte all the time, it's really challenging.

Kamal Datta: Right. Right.

GReg: So you may have to do that sometimes obviously to overcome your weaknesses, but you want to set yourself up for success and understanding a little bit more about your runner type can be really instructive getting the most out of your training time.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. That's great to know. And knowing your body, think of the coaches I talk to, I'm sure you also cause the same thing, like listen to your body, listen to your body, right? So if you, doesn't matter how hard you want to push yourself, if you're not listening to your body, it's going to fall apart at some point, ⁓ sure. ⁓ Given that experiment of one as a foundation, let's maybe dig a little bit about a beginning runner.

GReg: Yes, that's right. Yeah, that's right.

Kamal Datta: or a beginner, just, you know, starting to, or returning after a long break, the new runner, you know, high, often leads to that new runner injury. ⁓ does you think that happen?

GReg: Mm-hmm. The main reason is that the cardiovascular system and the mental system adapts faster to running than our musculoskeletal system. So your heart and your lungs and even your brain, those adapt pretty quickly, which is what you see in new runners. They come out and the first few runs are awful, right? The brain is screaming, they're breathing really heavily. The main reason is that the cardiovascular system and the mental system adapts faster to running than our musculoskeletal system. So your heart and your lungs and even your brain, those adapt pretty quickly, which is what you see in new runners. They come out and the first few runs are awful, right? The brain is screaming, they're breathing really heavily. but ⁓ it just doesn't take very long, right? And then suddenly you're like, ⁓ I can keep going at this pace or I can even go faster. I can talk to my training partner when we're running. The cardiovascular system and even the mental system says, ⁓ running's not scary anymore. I'm gonna let you do it. It doesn't send as many fatiguing messages, but the musculoskeletal system takes longer to adapt. So what happens of course is you're running, but ⁓ it just doesn't take very long, right? And then suddenly you're like, ⁓ I can keep going at this pace or I can even go faster. I can talk to my training partner when we're running. The cardiovascular system and even the mental system says, ⁓ running's not scary anymore. I'm gonna let you do it. It doesn't send as many fatiguing messages, but the musculoskeletal system takes longer to adapt. So what happens of course is you're running, only based on your cardiovascular adaptation and your mental adaptation, which allows you to go farther and faster than you should because your body can't keep up with it. And that's why coaches are saying when they say, listen to your body, what they're saying is we have to train slightly less than you might mentally be able to do or even cardiovascularly be able to do. And that's why we always talk about. only based on your cardiovascular adaptation and your mental adaptation, which allows you to go farther and faster than you should because your body can't keep up with it. And that's why coaches are saying when they say, listen to your body, what they're saying is we have to train slightly less than you might mentally be able to do or even cardiovascularly be able to do. And that's why we always talk about.

Kamal Datta: Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

GReg: you know, most of the coach's job is to hold the runner back. And that's mainly for the body. It's to give the body time to adapt, grow stronger so it can handle your new physical abilities. you know, most of the coach's job is to hold the runner back. And that's mainly for the body. It's to give the body time to adapt, grow stronger so it can handle your new physical abilities.

Kamal Datta: see. see. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's good. How would a beginner would maybe if there are key indicators that beginner should pay attention to, especially the musculoskeletal side of things, because, you know, it's you're holding back. You're trying to say that you hold back your... Don't go just listen to your heart or your brain is saying, hey, you can do it, go for it. But you are saying that that's the unknown or unseen, right? The musculoskeletal progress of that you can or cannot. So what would be a one or two key indicators that a beginner should pay attention?

GReg: Yeah, the first is if they feel excessive soreness that lasts from run to run. That's clearly the body saying, we're not recovering. A little soreness makes sense when you begin a new activity. Any of us doing a new activity, we might have some muscle soreness, but that should go away in between your activity. If it continues, then you're pushing too hard. Certainly if it moves into having any pain, aches or pains, that's a red flag that your musculoskeletal system is not adapting at the rate that you're forcing it to try to do because of your, and for most new runners, they just have to be more patient in their buildup, which is why it's great if you can get with a coach or a training partner or somebody that's experienced and what they'll be doing is no, let's not the pace today. Let's not increase the volume this week. ⁓

Kamal Datta: See.

GReg: of allow your body slowly to build into it. The is it's just so hard because you don't feel your muscular cell system the same way you feel your cardiovascular, right? When you run, the things get injured, you don't feel them until it's almost an injury. So we need to train at a little bit like 80 % of maximum and that's usually a good place to be.

Kamal Datta: Right. Mm-hmm.

GReg: so that you can keep training. As you get more experience, you start to learn, I need to back off here. This is too much. This is a red flag. This mileage got me injured last time. I need to be more careful. All those kinds of things kind of just come with experience.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. I see. What would be your number one piece of advice for them to stay healthy? So basically you have to pay attention to the musculoskeletal side of things, but in order to stay healthy, what would be your piece of advice?

GReg: Yeah, so one of the things you can do is have a good mobility program. when you, and you, mean, obviously you can go to YouTube and type in runner mobility program. There's a bazillion different things. All of them are good, right? But injury cycle in runners goes tightness in an area which causes dysfunction, which if left untreated starts to be aches.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: pains and then injury. So if you have a mobility program, what you're doing is you're finding those tight areas that you don't even feel when you're running. So you go through your mobility and you're like, ⁓ my hamstrings tight. That tells you I need to be more careful. So you're kind of catching it early by using a mobility program. I do that with all of my runners and it's really been helpful at keeping the injuries at bay because

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. See

GReg: you don't do that, you won't feel that tight area necessarily when you're running. It will only be once it's already advanced to an acre of pain, then you have more recovery time to try to avoid the injury.

Kamal Datta: Right. talk about this concept of talk test or strategy walking. I don't know if you want to shed some light on those two areas.

GReg: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so the talk test is really came about before we had these fancy watches, right? And so there wasn't really a way for you to govern your training or evaluate your training. So coaches would say, hey, okay, if you're going for an easy run, just make sure you can carry on a conversation with your training partner. That's a good zone. you wanna work on your stamina. Well, that should be where you can say a sentence or two.

Kamal Datta: Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

GReg: but you can't have a conversation because you would get out of breath. if you wanna do speed work, then maybe you can say a phrase or a couple of words and that's all you can get out. So that was a way to help runners kind of moderate effort through different runs based on what the goal of that run was. So the talk test is fantastic for people because... It's really related to your breathing, which we all have, and we can all monitor easily. So it doesn't require fancy watch or anything. It's a really good tool. And so for new runners, if you start to get out of breath, that's clearly saying you're running too fast for that easy run. You should slow down.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. Yeah. And then the strategic walking part. I know it's tough for runners, especially at night, we talk about other intermediate and also the elite runners. If you are walking, you are not running. I don't know if it's gilting or built into the runners. What is your take on being strategic about it?

GReg: I think run walk is fantastic. It's been shown since Jeff Galloway and Hal Higdon really created the marathon running boom in the 90s that run walk is a shortcut for people to be able to go farther than they could if they ran continuously, which is why like charity marathon groups, which I've coached, we do run walk because most people are coming from no running background. They're just starting, but they have this really challenging goal of 26.2 miles. Run-walk is a great strategy to help them farther than they could if they ran continuously. So ⁓ just think it's a proven approach for a lot of people as they get started, particularly if you find you can't run for four, five, 10 minutes continuously without getting out of breath. To me, that's a person that, hey,

Kamal Datta: I see.

GReg: do run walk, stop before you get out of breath. So then you can maintain a little bit faster cadence. I really like that for newer runners. And then once you find if, okay, running is my thing and I'm gifted at it, I don't need run walk anymore. I wanna run all the time. That's great. Some people say, you know, I just enjoy this better. It's not as hard. I can go longer. I can chat more with my buddy. They like that. So I'm like, hey, whatever works for you. So I've had great success.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

GReg: with RunWalk ⁓ for a lot of new runners and runners who, you know, maybe they're out of shape and continual running is just, it's just too difficult. So they don't enjoy it, but we use RunWalk and then they enjoy it.

Kamal Datta: makes total total total sense. Now for the intermediate runners, Craig, ⁓ or the age groupers, these are the folks who have done a few 5k's or maybe a or two marathons. They're consistent, but their times have stalled. Now, how do you get them to the next level? ⁓

GReg: Mm-hmm. Yeah, so that's a common thing is hitting a plateau because most of us, as we get more experienced in running, we start doing the same kind of training all the time. We meet with our group twice a week or three times a week and we kind of do the same running. And of course the body adapts to ever challenging stimulus. So you have to keep it kind of guessing. If you do the same thing,

Kamal Datta: Yeah. Right.

GReg: then it will improve to the level that it says, okay, I can handle what you're giving me. And then it stops improving. So with a person who's hit a plateau, you wanna look at, well, maybe experiment with running more mileage. That's another stimulus to the body. Or maybe you say, no, I wanna focus on improving my speed. So I'll work on my 5K time for training cycle. And that's a new stimulus, because maybe they've been working on half marathon or marathon training.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. Yeah.

GReg: you throw in hills or you go and do a different event. Somebody says, ⁓ I've run a bunch of marathons. I want to go train for a ⁓ or a 50 miler. Some change in the training can be helpful to kind of kickstart the body having to adapt again, since it's kind of stalled its adaptation. So I look at the runner and say, what do you like? What's your interest? What have you been in a lot of? How can we kind of move some of the pieces around to give a different stimulus?

Kamal Datta: believe you call it ⁓ gray zone. ⁓ So, and think you have some ⁓ four pillars that think focus part of your ⁓ coaching program. If you're gonna shed some light on those kind of how to fix the gray zone part.

GReg: Yeah Mm-hmm. Yeah, so the pillars of performance we talk a lot about are obviously the run training you have to do. You have to do taking care of the body. So that's the strength, the core, the mobility, those kinds of things. You have to eat well fuel your body. And then you have to think right. You have to work on your brain so that it finds you discover what the optimal mindset is for you. And then you've got to be a better athlete. You got to be more skilled at running. You got to have, you work on your form, you work on your cadence, you work on those kinds of things. Those are kind of the pillars that a well-rounded runner has. So if you're kind of always working on those things, you're putting yourself in a good position for sure.

Kamal Datta: This never ending debate on ⁓ threshold. I don't know where does it fall ⁓ the gray zone. I'm gonna shed some light on that spot. ⁓ Okay. Okay. ⁓

GReg: Okay. Yeah, so it's one of the training zones. So what we call it stamina. So we have endurance, stamina, speed, and sprint. Those are kind of the general training zones and they relate back to physiology and obviously they relate back to race performance. So the lactate threshold ⁓ basically your one hour race pace. So for most of us, that might be a ⁓ or a little longer than that. for the elite athletes, it's a half marathon. So, but it's kind of that one hour race pace. And that's a really important predictor of performance. In fact, it's the number one predictor of performance is your speed at your lactate threshold, which is why so many people focus on it where they're trying to improve it. is that middle ground where it's fast, but not too fast. Far, but not too far. ⁓ really, it's a very tough training zone to really dial in, but it has big benefits, which is why you hear so much about lactate threshold training. I will say some people go overboard, right? So they say, ⁓ lactate threshold is the most important. So that's all I'm gonna do. But racing involves everything. It involves endurance, stamina, speed, sprint, your mind.

Kamal Datta: right.

GReg: Pace practice, there's a lot of things that go into it, but that's definitely an important zone. And within that zone, I even, there's like micro zones. So you can do some training just slightly slower than the lactate threshold, some right at your lactate threshold and some slightly faster and you get an even bigger boost in your lactate threshold speed.

Kamal Datta: Cool. believe in your coaching program, Greg, you also mentioned about prehab, the concept of prehab and ⁓ aspects of prehab. Do you to shed some light on what people especially the intermediate group of folks, can take away? ⁓

GReg: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So prehab, I learned from Phil Wharton, who's one of the guys that really promoted the active isolated mobility or rope stretching. You may have seen it and all the pro athletes use this. And he always called it prehabilitation to avoid rehabilitation. So you're doing things as a preventive thing. So prehab in our world,

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: ⁓ really comes down to taking care of your body. That's your strength, core, mobility, any exercises that address your particular weak areas. That is critical. So you're keeping your body able to handle the training you want to do. So all of my programs, we build in prehab, we build in strength, core, mobility, all of that has to be important as the run training. So it's kind of,

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

GReg: You don't run and then do that. It's one concept. You don't view it separately. think Meb Kufleski, you know, in one of his books, he said he would rather for some runners, particularly if you get injured all the time, run one less mile and spend that time doing, working on your body. That would be a better use. So it's that idea that you're just building yourself into a more durable body.

Kamal Datta: I see.

GReg: that can run more and faster over time. And if you do it consistently across six months or a year, you really can make big changes. And again, then your body is better able to handle the running that you want to do.

Kamal Datta: That makes total sense. going to the elites, before I go there, I think I'm just pulling out some numbers from your website. So you have cost over 23 million runners, 152 go-at-plants, over 152,000 plants being used. And this is the part I wanted to highlight. 22,553 Boston qualifiers through your program.

GReg: Yeah.

Kamal Datta: Now the elites, or you call the entrance monster, these are the runners chasing vehicles, I just showed you the numbers, or they're on the podiums, right? At this level, what separates ⁓ good from the great?

GReg: Yeah, for sure. Yeah, mostly it is staying healthy so they can keep training ⁓ the right mind. Most the work that ⁓ the challenging part I found in coaching elite runners is the side. It's less the X's and O's. We kind of know now through years of people being really good at training and racing kind of what they need. Again, taking into account their unique. profiles, but it was really about, get their mind to a point where they're confident, they're happy, they're excited to challenge themselves, and they make good decisions in the race? That to me ⁓ and it filters down. all can, we all need that for ⁓ Olympics, right? Whatever it is for us, we need that. But at ⁓ pro level, ⁓ It is a lot. mean everybody's really good, right? Like everybody's fast. So a lot of it does come down to confidence and being smart about how you're racing.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Are there environmental factors, Greg, that the elites need to consider or I'm sure they do consider, but that you want to highlight like sleep or, you know, travel? ⁓ ⁓

GReg: Yeah, well, they train at altitude for sure. mean, most all the elite runners are training at altitude. I live at 7,000 feet in Flagstaff, Arizona. You can't throw a rock without hitting a pro runner these days here. It's just everybody's training at altitude. So they really try to cover all their bases. So they're gonna train at altitude. They're gonna be really controlled in monitoring their training and getting feedback on that. Rest is huge.

Kamal Datta: ⁓ okay.

GReg: They run a lot, so they rest a lot. They do the ancillary training, the prehab stuff. They do all of that. And then they work on their mental game with visualization or mantras or ⁓ ⁓ need. They're just trying to tease out every little bit of it. And then they, what they do ⁓ in usually with their team of their performance team, what they do is they

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

GReg: really pay attention to cause and effect. So they say, ⁓ I ate that meal and I didn't feel as good the next day. So they won't eat that meal anymore before a key workout, right? So they connect all of that together. They connect what you eat with how you feel running and how does that help you recover or feel in the next day? They were connecting all of those dots together. and then they just keep refining their life so that eventually almost robotic where it's automatic pilot. I have a big workout tomorrow, I'm eating this today. ⁓ had this big workout, I'm eating this after the workout because it helps me. So they're really attentive to how all of these factors all kind of tie into each other.

Kamal Datta: I see. That's good to know. Thank you for sharing that too. You're also known for ⁓ finish long run. Tell us about that.

GReg: Yeah. Yeah, I learned it from an Italian coach working with a team based here in the U.S. in their, in ⁓ marathon every other week. So we probably did four fast finish long runs. And these were essentially a little bit shorter than a regular long run, but you were running the last part very fast. You're kind of emptying the tank at the end. ⁓ And I ⁓

Kamal Datta: I see.

GReg: from observing it was that number one, it's difficult in training to mimic the level of fatigue that you have in the marathon. In a 5K or 10K, you can do it in training, right? You can kind of simulate how it feels. That's pretty easy. But it's hard to do in something like the marathon. And so the fast finish long run was a way to make you tired ⁓ you're going to be. in the last few miles of the marathon. And so it allowed you to mentally figure out how you needed to think to try to keep going when you're tired, to push when you're tired, which is what you have to do in the marathon, right? You push even though you don't go faster, but you have to raise your intensity. So it was a really great way to provide kind of that mental challenge that marathoners have that.

Kamal Datta: ⁓ I see, Right. Right.

GReg: particularly if you're a new marathoner, you're not aware of that level of fatigue and how it feels, because you're not like breathing heavy at the of the marathon, you just can't go. So trying to get them into that. And then the second thing was it does empty the glycogen stores, so our carbohydrate stores in our body, and then you refuel and it stores more. So it gave a good stimulus for providing more carbohydrate storage. And I've used it now

Kamal Datta: Yeah. That's true, yeah.

GReg: ⁓ for 25 years with all of my intermediate and advanced marathoners. And even I do some of it for the half marathon. And it has been so great. And what's interesting is that some people poo poo it. Some people write articles saying you should never do it and this and that. And I'm like, wow, you know, my first marathon, the big problem was I wasn't prepared for that level of fatigue. I wasn't prepared for how that felt. I had been really fast, you know, and like I knew racing 5k, 10k half marathon, I knew that fatigue. The marathon was a different beast. I wasn't prepared for it. So I think it's a really good way for people that after they've proven they can finish a marathon and that's their goal. If they start going, ⁓ I want to go a little faster than the fast finish long runs, two or three or four of those across your last eight or 10 weeks, alternating every other week or so.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: I think it works great.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, and that definitely logically makes sense. What would be a, if I had to quantify, if say, someone is trading at seven or eight minutes a mile, and then you're going 10 plus miles, so what would be that look like? And again, you don't have be very specific. Yeah.

GReg: Mm-hmm. As a fast finish long run? Yeah. Yeah. So you would usually do two or three miles at your regular long run pace. So kind of as a warmup, right? And then you're gradually going to increase your pace to your marathon pace, your goal marathon pace. And you're going to hold that for several miles. And then for the last two or three miles, you just continue to run as fast as you can. So you're practicing running.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

GReg: on tired legs when you're fatigued, ⁓ of that would a classic fast finish long run. So you're getting a little warmup, a fair amount of running at goal pace, which is great practice. It's a dress rehearsal for the race. You practice fueling your gear, ⁓ all that. And then you kind of empty the tank over the last 10 or 20 minutes is really good.

Kamal Datta: I see that you use the phrase as fast as you can go. But you're not saying, say it's a 5k pace or a 10k pace. It depends. Okay.

GReg: Yep. No, you want to be able to do that. No, you, you'll be a little bit faster than your marathon pace, but it's going to be hard because you're fatigued. So again, it's really for mental gymnastics. It's like, what do you, what mantra or thought or distraction, whatever, what works for you when you're feeling that way? Cause to have success you in a race where you're going for performance.

Kamal Datta: I see, see. Yeah, yeah. Die. Yeah. Yeah. Hmm.

GReg: what you have to do is you have to be able to keep pushing when everything is saying not to, ⁓ when half of your brain is giving you an out to slow down, right? You have to somehow develop the ability, even the desire to be in that situation and challenge yourself. And for most people, it's some sort of mantra or thought process or whatever it is, but you...

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: you really dial that in in those workouts so that when you get in the race, you know, it's not new to you. You have a strategy to use.

Kamal Datta: That makes sense. so many early runners or advanced runners, ⁓ what is the biggest mistake that you have seen the advanced runners make? ⁓ so they're back to the beginner level, huh? ⁓ yeah. ⁓

GReg: They don't listen to their body, kind of like that we were talking about. they get, yeah, it's the same problem. So for those guys, the biggest error is that they get injured and they get injured because they ignore their inner coach. Cause we all know when we feel a little injury, a little tightness, a little something, but we ignore it, right? We're like, that'll go away this time.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

GReg: And then we keep training until we get injured. And what's interesting about running is that there are several running injuries, but most of us get the same one on the same side over and over. We have like our thing. It's my right hamstring. It's my left Achilles. It's my plantar fascia. And so we, you with, if you're going for performance, you have to listen to your body, take care, better care of your body. ⁓ And it's a big challenge I have with those runners because they're driven, right? That's why they're good because they're they're disciplined. They're dedicated. They're driven. They they're goal oriented and and it's really tough for me to say I'm sorry, but this week we're gonna take it down week. We're gonna run very little and slow and you're gonna focus more take care of your body. We're gonna do that now. I know the race is coming up. You're freaking out about losing fitness or whatever, but I'd rather you my mantra is

Kamal Datta: Right. Right. Yeah.

GReg: start line healthy, finish line faster. You have to get to the start line healthy. So I'm willing to sacrifice a little bit of training. Cause I know they're not going to lose very much fitness just by one down week, but they will lose a lot if they have to take a week or two and they're limping through runs or they have to take it off. So I think at that level, again, it's just like train so you can keep training. Do this training, train this week so you can train next week, train next week so you can train the week after. And if that's kind of your overarching, you know, of opera modus operandi or whatever they say, like if you do that, then you'll ⁓ successful.

Kamal Datta: No, thank you, Greg. I know you went through three kind of different levels of runners and how they can benefit actually listening to their body. I'm trying to switch a little bit about the coaching side or the business side of things. How would you say that it has evolved coaching or coaching as an industry over the years? I know you've been coaching for a long, time. I've seen all probably.

GReg: Yeah, it's really evolved. When I started doing remote coaching, we were faxing training programs back and forth. This is pre-email. So that's how long I've been doing it. you know, that kind of, the remote stuff started really with kind of faxing and bare bones email the way. And then of course, email got better. And so we were able to do a little bit more with it.

Kamal Datta: Ha! Okay. Okay. Yeah.

GReg: know, email correspondence. And then, you know, the internet really took off and that then provided this real continual evolution of the ability to communicate, the ability to deliver training in different formats. And of course, then in with that, you had watch development, which really allowed the coach to see what the athlete was doing and get better recording of their training. So that really advanced a lot. And then of course you had everybody become a coach. So there wasn't, you we didn't really say, you need degrees or certifications or anything like that. You can just be a coach. So that really, you know, had a lot of, a lot more people getting into coaching of other runners. And of course today there's coaches and different platforms and devices. And it's, really,

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: a different world from sending faxes back and forth.

Kamal Datta: Have you noticed that technology actually helped you as a coach to scale? scale, what I mean is like say in person, there's probably a X that you can coach folks, right? ⁓ Would think that it helped you ⁓ scale? Okay.

GReg: Sure, yes, right. 100%. And it depends on what level of coaching you're doing, right? So if I'm doing one-on-one coaching, I can't scale that. I only have so many people on my roster that I can coach. But when you move away, the less touch you have, then the technology definitely allows you to scale more and more. And of course, over time, my library of training plans is...

Kamal Datta: I see, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

GReg: thousands of plans now, because I've been building them for forever, right? If you're a new coach, then it takes a while to build up those. So, you know, it's just a part of the journey, I guess.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. Yeah, now that makes sense. Now, you mentioned briefly about the devices. ⁓ Is that augmenting your skills as a coach or it is more of lot of noise?

GReg: Mm-hmm. It can if it's used as a tool. So ⁓ problem with technology ⁓ that we've been able to collect more data than we're able to analyze in a helpful manner all the time. digging through, always tell this, can you imagine being a new runner, going and getting a new GPS watch, going for your first run? downloading the results from that watch. I mean, it's like a stockbroker's screen. There's charts and graphs and things are spinning and there's green, red, yellows. It's overwhelming the amount of data that we can collect on every run. So think there's an art to understanding how to manage ⁓ of that data. What's important, what's informative, what matters on particular runs and what doesn't.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: That's really important because we just get hammered with so much data. you we've never lived in a time in running where ⁓ you are ⁓ analyzed ⁓ everything. even an easy run, ⁓ used to you go easy run, you're like, you run easy, it's done. Maybe you felt good that day, maybe you didn't, it didn't matter, right? But now it's like, ⁓ your heart rate is this, was this, cadence was this, landing more on your left side. It's overwhelming for some of those. So I do think it's important to understand what data care about and when, and ⁓ all the don't matter all the time. Sometimes ⁓ one matters, one doesn't. So that's been the challenge with our ability to collect more data, but not necessarily

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: understand how to evaluate it.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, what I call it, you're counting the data, but the insights that the folks are getting out of the data, is it actionable? ⁓ can I do? So, okay, I just went for a 14 mile run today and I got a ⁓ of data, I'll get, right? ⁓ what I should pay attention.

GReg: Mm-hmm.

Kamal Datta: And again, me not being an expert as like you, like you understand what are the key vitals that you should be paying attention as a runner. But for an average runner, do you figure out which one to listen to and what actions you can take, right? That's probably very critical. ⁓

GReg: It's really critical and it's very difficult, right? Because if don't know, ⁓ I'll VO2 Max as a good example. So most of the watches now will estimate your VO2 Max, ⁓ which usually a number in the ⁓ 40s 50, 55, whatever, some people's 60s. It's some number like that, right? ⁓ And then watch, if you slower for a few days,

Kamal Datta: Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

GReg: it's going to say your VO2 max goes down, but that's not what happens in your body. And so that's a really good example of a lot of people are like, my VO2 max went down. I was like, well, no, it didn't. The watch is interpreting this run incorrectly and VO2 max doesn't change that fast. Or sometimes it's like, I don't care because we're doing training that has nothing to do with trying to improve VO2 max. We're going to get to that later. So it really does take, I think, someone that can understand you and the data and help you know what you should care about or not. Because you do, because every run you collect all the data, right? You don't say, watch, don't collect this data. But for me, I care about some of it and some of it I wouldn't. If you did your long run today, I would care about how did you feel? Were you strong at the end or not? Did you practice your fueling? Was anything painful later in the run?

Kamal Datta: Yes, yes.

GReg: Is there any mental challenge? I probably wouldn't care a ton if your heart rate crept up toward the end of the run. I probably wouldn't care if your pace fluctuated because it was, you know, it's snowy there now, so you gotta be careful on some slippery parts. So your pace goes, I wouldn't care about that, right? But if you didn't know that information, if you just sent me your file and I didn't know you were running where the roads are hard to run on right now, I'd be, what would happen with the pacing, right?

Kamal Datta: Right.

GReg: But I would know I don't care about that because I understand how to interpret.

Kamal Datta: Right. No, thank you. Thank you for sharing. do you think about AI coaches?

GReg: I think will get better and better. mean, that's the whole thing with most technology. It gets better and better and better. And so in theory, it will get better and better. It's not ⁓ great because ⁓ it doesn't the differences runners. It doesn't understand the mentality of runners. it's too focused on all the data all the time. And that's not always helpful for some people. It doesn't wake up in the middle of the night like I do thinking about a runner and their situation and thinking, oh, you know, I wanna talk to them tomorrow. Cause I know they really struggled. So I wanna make sure they're good. And I'm gonna modify the way, like it doesn't do that, right? Like it doesn't have that yet.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: And so sure it will get better and better. But people are learning with artificial intelligence ⁓ is it can in erroneous theories or thoughts or falsehoods, untruths, and then replicate it. Because if it's a popular untrue thing, it looks true to AI.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: because it's frequent on the internet or whatever. So it's data. So I think a lot of industries are going, ⁓ wait a minute, this error got introduced and then it got replicated it didn't know that was an error or it was looking at it the wrong way. So we'll see how it goes. mean, obviously if it helps more people get into the sport and be active and healthy, I'm all for it. If it...

Kamal Datta: Yeah, it's a data point, yeah. Yeah.

GReg: If it does things that hasn't been proven by experienced coaches and athletes for a long time, then I'm not as on it.

Kamal Datta: If you want to build, say if you decided, hey, I'm going to build an AI coach myself, Greg, you put ⁓ human in the loop?

GReg: I think it's super helpful to, particularly at this juncture, I think it's very helpful to again, have a backup to evaluate what you're seeing so that if something doesn't feel right or look right or sound right, you're not confused. have somebody to lean on to say, does this make sense? Is this right? Is it not? I think it's helpful. And that's what... we're certainly finding in my business is that we're getting a lot of people who who tried AI coaching and then they leave because it could do a lot of the things that we like from technology standpoint, but they were confusing things or over training or like rude ⁓ back or, like not understanding the, you know, the human psyche is very.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. ⁓ really? Okay. Yeah.

GReg: fragile, particularly if you're training for something that's really important to you. So I think, you know, I understand you're getting ready for a marathon. I've run so many, I know what you're going through, right? Like, so I understand. And if I know more about your life and your work and all that, then I can make those adjustments that AI cannot do because it doesn't yet have that ability to kind of understand. AI hasn't run a marathon yet, so it doesn't.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

GReg: kind of know what it feels like.

Kamal Datta: That is true, that is true. Yeah, that's built on data. That's not built on experience, that's for sure. All right, let's move to the rapid fire round with Coach Craig. ⁓ So it will be a couple of rapid fire questions from the Macmillan vault. Pace or heart rate?

GReg: Hehehehehe Okay. Okay. ⁓ it's a bad answer, but I think heart rate in certain situations and pace in certain situations. Because after all, most of us race for pace. So we better be good at what we're trying to do.

Kamal Datta: the most important workout in any plan.

GReg: Probably the one that challenges you in the exact same way you're going to be challenged in your event, in your race. If you can that, that's a good sign.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. That's a very good way of putting it. Thank you. The Macmillan calculator. Should people be slaves to it? ⁓

GReg: It is designed to get you in the ballpark. It was really to be a helpful tool to kind of narrow the field to a range that predicted for you. And then you learn, you experiment, you run and see where you fall. So it is, it is predictive, but it really is to get you in the ballpark and then you'll learn kind of how you operate within it.

Kamal Datta: Greg, thank you so much for sharing years and years of experience of coaching ⁓ so many runners across the board. If people have to find ⁓ about you, your coaching and what do you do, ⁓ what is best way to find about?

GReg: The website for sure, Macmillanrunning.com. It's there, ⁓ calculator's there. There's a bunch of, it's free. There's a bunch of free tools and articles and videos and all of that. And then of course we have training plans and coaching if people want to ⁓ work in that way.

Kamal Datta: Again, thank you for joining us in What Runs a Run. ⁓ you have given us actually a master class in the experiment of one. So thank you. ⁓

GReg: Thank you for having me. I appreciate it.