Your Shoes Live for 1,000 Years: Tony Piedade on Ending the Running Waste Crisis

Kamal Datta: Welcome everyone to what runs a run pod and to a mini series called sustainability in 26.2, which is exploring the intersection of movement and the environment. I'm your host Kamal Dutta. Today we are talking about the ghost that haunts every runner's closet. The old shoes that we can't quite bring ourselves to throw away and for good reason. Our guest today, Tony Pidade, started by helping us find people to run with two jogging buddies. But then he realized that every new runner he inspired was eventually going to contribute to a massive environmental problem. Now, he's the man behind JogOn, an initiative that has diverted over 40 tons of shoes from landfills. Tony, welcome to the pod.

Tony: Thanks for having me, Kamau. How are you?

Kamal Datta: Think great. ⁓ So you started two companies, ⁓ Jogging Buddy and then Jog On. So let's go back and you want to give a little kind of your journey starting both. Maybe start with Jogging Buddy first.

Tony: Yeah, sure. And look, it's very grand to call them companies. They were just ideas. And this is a bit of a thread that runs through some of the things that I've done. And Jogon is no different. But let me take you back to 2009. this is like pre, I mean, Facebook was probably only just really being talked about. I'm a runner. Let me kind of back up a little bit. I've always liked running. I'm a plodder. I'm not fast, I'm not slow, I'm middle of the road guy who just loves to run and be active. To give you some perspective, last year I did about 700 kilometers in total. So, you know, I put in some miles. Back in 2009, I had a real dip. I had a really terrible boss, I had to work for a bad company. I wasn't enjoying life, I was overweight, I was smoking. bad word. was, you know, and I decided that I really, you know, this is not me. I wanted to go out running. So I put my laces, you know, laced up my trainers at four o'clock in the morning in London and I went running. That was my first run. And I didn't get very far before I saw another runner and then another. And this is like, I was a bit like, I wish I'd known these guys were out running at four o'clock. I'd go running with them. And, and of course there would be right cities. They, they don't sleep. You know, people work shift patterns, you know,

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Tony: for whatever reason. So my view was, and so I started thinking about how do I connect people? How do I connect people? know, technology is great at recording you once you've gone out of the door, but it's not necessarily very good at getting you out. So if I have a verbal contract with Kamal to go and run at three o'clock in the morning on a wet Wednesday, I'm more likely to keep that contract. So I created Jogging Bunny, and it was for me.

Kamal Datta: Right. Mm-hmm. And it's true. Right.

Tony: It was a selfish project. And, you know, and it's hard to try and do something which is location based because initially there was no value to anybody because there's nobody there. Right. So I was member number one. I am delighted to tell you that though, that in that space of time, we're now in 123 countries. And, and it's just been absolutely phenomenal. It's a totally free website, totally free to sign up. And with a single objective.

Kamal Datta: Hahaha ⁓ Right, Yeah, yeah.

Tony: to get people more active by buddying them up. We all need a bit of a boost. We all need a bit of encouragement. And there's also an important element for this. And I'd love to tell you that I planned it, but it only really emerged over the last few years, safely. So 51 % of our members are female. And that's brilliant because it tells me we're doing something right. But it also tells us, unfortunately, women in particular do find it

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tony: less safe to go out running and particularly those that may have no choice but to run at strange times. So it's a great resource to go and buddy up with someone who's in a similar situation ⁓ you know and go run together. So there's quite a serious ⁓ to it.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. That's great to hear, yeah.

Tony: So it's been a journey and so Jogging Buddy has been kind of the catalyst in my mind about...

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Tony: you know, being well, being active, and buddying people up. You know, I travel a lot and I use the site to go and find somebody to go run with in whatever country or city I'm in. And so it's been a useful tool. And I think, I mean, if I move, kind of accelerate a few years on, know, jogging buddies have been going on for ages. And I'll tell you about jog on, right? Because this is a crazy idea and I'm full of them.

Kamal Datta: ⁓ that's cool. Yeah, yeah.

Tony: But this one in particular, I was reading an article here in the UK written by one of the main newspapers, basically said, you know, over three, and I think their numbers, and I might get this number wrong, but it's about 300 million pairs of shoes going to landfill every year.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. I see.

Tony: Now this is all shoes, I'm guessing. The article didn't go into detail and I figured, you know what, even if 10 % of those are just running shoes, that's a big problem. And now I'm gonna put my hand up to your viewers and listeners, right? I am not on a kind of quest to get everybody being sustainable and drive better. There are lots of things in my life that I could do better, but this felt to me.

Kamal Datta: Right, right.

Tony: like it's something we could try and do something about. And so look, I read this in the middle of the week. At the weekend I went walking with my wife and children. We go on a nice long country walk quite often. And she said, you know, what's the matter with you? You've not been here for a while. You know, what's wrong? And I said, nothing. ⁓ I went back to my office and then...

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Tony: basically the following week ⁓ decided to do something about it. I built the website Wednesday and Thursday of the following week and on the following Monday morning I said, darling, we're going to start collecting smelly shoes in the garage. And that was the birth of it. That's how it started. ⁓ know, from reading one article and just deciding to do something about it.

Kamal Datta: Hahaha Yeah. No, that's pretty amazing. You saw a challenge that kept you awake at night and it come up with a solution and here you go, jog on as born. Now, let me preface a question. I think you alluded to the fact. So it's the shock factor, right? So you usually, most of us, the runners or, you know, maybe in other sports as well, we replace our shoes like every 300 to 500 miles, right? We think we are being responsible by getting fresh foam for our knees, right? That's kind of the driving factor. But you found out that this shows outlivers by centuries. So I believe that was your aha moment if I got your ⁓ kind of the journey to start jog on right, right?

Tony: Yeah, some of it was by accident, right? And I, you there is no doubt in my mind when I, you know, in my eighties, I would write a book, tell you that I planned all of this and, and, I didn't. The reality is that as runners, we know that we need shoes. We run a lot. And we know that when we see that time tapering off,

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah.

Tony: that the first thing we're going to blame, it's not ourselves or that we feel fatigued, it's normally my shoes are too old or it's always something else before you go looking in the hard places, right? So changing that pair of shoes just feels right and it does. There's nothing better than putting on a brand new pair of shoes, you've got the cushion, you feel you can run much further and much faster. And that's fine.

Kamal Datta: Yeah.

Tony: Because look, one of the things that I'm very passionate about is being active. So I don't want to be poking away at the brands by saying, you know, you should be doing better. know, it's not about that because we know globally, the biggest killer globally is obesity, Inactivity. So I don't want people to say like, you know, I'm not going to do this. So, but it is true that a pair of shoes doesn't... stop being a pair of shoes or a pair of running shoes once you've done 300 miles in them. They are less comfortable, yes. They have less spring, yes. But for somebody else who isn't going to run a marathon, know, a sub three hour marathon, that would be a very comfortable pair of shoes to have on their feet. Right? And I think that is the bit. How do we extend the life beyond running?

Kamal Datta: Yeah. Right, right. That is true.

Tony: of pair of running shoes. And you only have to go down any mall, right? And you look down at people's feet. There are people wearing running shoes as normal everyday walking shoes, right?

Kamal Datta: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I do it like after I'm done with 300 or 400 miles, it's still in my, and I go out for, you know, for dinner or sometimes maybe, you know, I'm using it with a pair of jeans and whenever I can and mix and match. So let's talk about a couple of things you learned, right? Why is it so hard to just recycle a running shoe? And what did you find out since you started? Like, you you talk about plastic, right? Okay, recycle plastic. But I think there's more to it than recycling a shoe. What did you find so far? Yeah.

Tony: There are a couple of things that I found that were really interesting. I'll tell you one. The first one is I spoke to a number of people. In fact, a few people who I've said they can have started this idea is called jog on, know, we're gonna collect running shoes. And they said, you know, I had that idea five years ago. And I've always said to them, you know, why didn't you start then? Because we could be five years further ahead than we are today. Right? So first of all is I've learned that actually

Kamal Datta: Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, right.

Tony: just getting on and having a go has got an incredible value. And none of this was with a kind of view that this was ever gonna be sort of a national enterprise. So the second thing I learned was that getting people to change habits is probably the single most important thing first. And the habit I wanted them to be aware of was that disposing of their shoes today,

Kamal Datta: Right. Right.

Tony: in whatever way they're doing it, isn't tracked in any way, isn't kind of validated. So you have some certainty that it isn't gonna go into landfill. You need to send your shoes to me. Right? So that was the second bit. that was, we've got a long way to go, right? But we are getting there. People know us, we are running shows and we are being recognized and we get...

Kamal Datta: Right. Mm-hmm.

Tony: know, six pallets of shoes every week. So, you we're doing something right. ⁓ the third is then saying, and ⁓ the fact that there are good pairs and bad pairs was for me ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ thought people were just going to send me what we call the end of life shoes, Shoes that had holes everywhere and falling apart and they were just not going to be reusable. ⁓ the fact that we have got some that can be reused.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tony: was an unintended consequence of the operation. recycling a pair of shoes is very, very hard. it isn't, there are problems with it because of the composition, right? You've got the foam, you've got the rubber, you've got plates in there, you've got the laces, you've got the uppers.

Kamal Datta: Right.

Tony: And the process by which you put them in and you have them sort of churned and cut up and then separated is fundamentally really long. But we're there, right? We have a process that's not yet live in the UK. It is a process that has been sitting there dormant for about 18 months. And I'll tell you the reason why that in a minute. But from a research perspective, we know it can be done. And we know we can divide it the uppers,

Kamal Datta: I see. I see.

Tony: And the apples can be aggregated to go and produce some product. And we know that the other components, what we call, what I call crumb, they can be put to one side and manufactured into something different. So we know it can be done.

Kamal Datta: Right, right. Now let's go through the life cycle. So I am a rider. ⁓ I have done 300 to 500 miles and I come across that, I want to donate my shoes to jog on. can I go through the life cycle? What happens? So I...

Tony: Sure. So there's a couple of ways. In the UK, we have over 512 partners. So these are ⁓ leisure centers, gyms, libraries, offices, office buildings, residential blocks, where they have a collection box, one of our cardboard boxes, and you can just put them in there and those owners, those operators will box that up every time it's full and send it to me. So that's option one. And we also have a national

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Okay.

Tony: kind of relationship with a ⁓ delivery company. So you could send me, anyone in the UK can send me a box with 30 pairs inside for three pounds, less than a cup of coffee. Right? So that kind of brings down that next problem with the change of habit, which is reducing the barrier, right? And the cost barrier, it's actually quite cheap considering how much pairs of shoes go for these days.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Right, but it's just like 30 pairs in a box people can send to you for less than a coffee, right? And you have the partnership with the carrier, you build that. Cool.

Tony: Absolutely, yeah. Absolutely, yeah. So from a practical point of view, we've got that pretty set up.

Kamal Datta: Cool, so they send you the shoes, then what's next? What do you do with the shoes? Yeah.

Tony: They arrive and I sort through them. every Thursday, Thursday is what we call moving day. ⁓ Everything arrives and everything leaves. So the new deliveries arrive and we typically get between six and seven pallets a week, all in boxes. And then some of the what we call the end of life shoes get picked up by our government contractor to take those away. and everything happens in that time. Even our cardboard, so the boxes that people send us their shoes in, they all get recycled. So the recycling company comes and collect those as well. That's moving day. And then I've got a whole week to go through those boxes, sort out those shoes, and by hand, decide good or bad. And it's as simple as that.

Kamal Datta: I see. and you do it in your still in your garage. I know you started in your garage. Let's talk about it. Yeah.

Tony: No, no, I am grateful, grateful for the fact that we have managed, ⁓ you know, was a, the growth journey was incredible. We grew from the ⁓ garage to the biggest shed that I could legally put in my garden and then into a shared space and now we have a warehouse about 10 minutes away from where I live.

Kamal Datta: That's pretty cool. Now then you manually sort it out within the week. like what does the after sort looks like? Looks like there are a couple of buckets of areas where you put those shoes.

Tony: Yep, so the end of life shoes, go into bags and they get tagged. you know, they've had, they've failed the visual inspection. My judgment on those has been that they are no longer suitable for somebody to wear, even as a pair of walking shoes. Right. So that's the kind of benchmark. And then the other ones get put to the side and the ones that are, you know, kind of good, they all get boxed. And, and it's like, we don't grade them. We don't size them. We don't put male, female, size sixes. Everything just goes into boxes.

Kamal Datta: Okay. And then what happens next? Is it something you take care of it too after that? ⁓

Tony: Yeah. if those are, so the ones that we keep that are still ongoing, you know, put them up on shelves. Now we have incredible relationships with a number of organizations around the UK. And we're still looking at different distribution models, right? Where things go, where and when and kind of capabilities. But predominantly we work with organizations where there is need. So as an example, there's seven schools in this country that we occasionally send shoes to. We work with the prison service, a number of institutions. And we do also send shoes abroad. People will always say in a slightly sniggering way, you've just sent all this stuff to Africa. Actually, we do send stuff overseas, but we try to, I try to avoid sending stuff to Africa. And for no other reason than it's got such a poor connotation. And also there are lots of places around the world where there is incredible, incredible need.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm.

Tony: that doesn't get the publicity that Africa gets. So, you know, we try and distribute them far and wide.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. I see. I see. So basically you're sending it to places based on your partnerships where they can actually use those shoes. Like you mentioned a couple of ⁓ institutions that partner or some other overseas as well. ⁓ That's pretty much the afterlife for the kind of the shoes that you categorize as usable or sort of kind of still has life. What do you do with the one that you think, okay, they're end of life?

Tony: But disappointingly, in the UK today, the only option available is what we call waste to energy, effectively being incinerated. So they're going into a power plant, they get burnt, and then they produce electricity as part of that process. So when you look at it incrementally, it's better than going into a hole in the ground. So a pair of shoes in landfill will take a thousand years to degrade, right?

Kamal Datta: I see. Right, right.

Tony: That's no good for anybody. Incineration is better and there is an output that I think I can live with, right? It's an incremental benefit. But that is not where I want it to be, as I alluded to earlier, you know, there is another way and the shredding machine, the shredding process is the other way. Perhaps it's a good time to kind of go into why that's not yet live. Jog on.

Kamal Datta: That's true. Mm-hmm.

Tony: is, is, you know, kind of a custodian of this sort of process. But I, you know, we do need the brands to kind of be responsible or share some responsibility for this process. There is no value at the moment that I can see in the output of a shredded shoe, right? I can't say send us your shoes. I'll shred them for free because I know somebody's going to pay me, you know, 500 bucks per kilo.

Kamal Datta: Correct, yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tony: for this end product, right? The reality is it's worthless. At the moment it's worthless. We don't know what we can do with it because we're not producing enough of it. So the brands need to play their part. They need to come forward and say, do you know what, Tony? For every pair of my shoes, my brand that you shred, I will give you X amount, right? And at the moment we're talking around about the two pounds, ⁓ two, three dollar tight mark per pair.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Right.

Tony: So what does that feel like for me? And so actually, let me give you back. One of the things that I don't want the brands to do is to think that, Tony, how are going to trust the number of shoes that Tony says he's shredded, right? So I have already created an AI process where the shoes go along the conveyor belt. They are identified by the AI and we log and keep all that evidence. when I say I've shredded 10 of your shoes,

Kamal Datta: Right. Mm-hmm.

Tony: 10 pairs of Nike or whatever I did last year, I would show them the evidence. So it's all fully tracked. So the process is there, but we haven't quite got the brands behind it just yet.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. So that's, I call this process trust but verify, right? You have, okay, trust me that I've done that. And then this is the verifiable proof of that. So you bring up a good point and I know initially when you had an inter-call, we talked a little bit about it. Where does the, I don't know if it's a moral obligation, but the responsibility lies. Is this the one? So you bring up a good point Where does the, the responsibility lies. Is this who is actually manufacturing the shoes, or its the actual user of the product, or combination both, where end of life should be a overall thought part of the life cycle of the product itself. who is actually manufacturing the shoes, which is I think you're eluding to the fact, or its the actual user of the product, ⁓ or its a combination of both, where end of life should be a kind of overall thought to part of the life cycle of the material or the actual job, the product itself.

Tony: think the way to capture of ⁓ intents ⁓ in the initial pricing of the purchase. ⁓ ⁓ has to, I think brands do have a responsibility. They're very good at bringing new models, new ⁓ every year to kind of make you want to go and buy a new shiny pair of shoes. That's great, that's fine. So in that process, at least be... ⁓ think the way to capture both of those intents is in the initial pricing of the purchase. a brand has to, I think brands do have a responsibility. They're very good at bringing new models, new colors ⁓ every year to kind of make you want to go and buy a new shiny pair of shoes. That's great, that's fine. So in that process, at least be...

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Tony: ⁓ part of the solution for when those are, you know, reached their end of life. I mean, it's particularly now, right? We're seeing shoes being built that are not designed to last beyond a single marathon, right? I mean, that feels bonkers, right? So, even if it's a user, right? And you say to a user in the purchase path, you know, I'm gonna give you the option to pay an extra two pounds. ⁓ part of the solution for when those are, you know, reached their end of life. I mean, it's particularly now, right? We're seeing shoes being built that are not designed to last beyond a single marathon, I mean, that feels bonkers, right? ⁓ even it's a user, right? And you say to a user in the purchase path, you know, I'm gonna give you the option to pay an extra two pounds.

Kamal Datta: Right, pretty much, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Tony: so that we can fund the destruction of shoes when they reach their, know, maybe there is a collaboration between the user and the brand, but the brand holds that journey and holds that messaging together. So I think, know, two pounds per pair at the moment, that's not a big ask considering how much money ⁓ you know, how much some of these pairs of shoes go for. so that we can fund the destruction of shoes when they reach their, know, maybe there is a collaboration between the user and the brand, but the brand holds that journey and holds that messaging together. So I think, you know, two pounds per pair at the moment, that's not a big ask considering how much money is, you know, how much some of these pairs of shoes go for.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, yeah. I mean, you're hitting this good point, right? This industry is built on the newest, fastest, the lightest. We are told shoe is dead when the foam loses its pop, right? So how do we change the runner's mindset to see that dead for a marathon doesn't mean dead for life, right? I think that's why you're changing the paradigm on how you think about it, if I'm getting it right.

Tony: Yeah, you are. And I do think it's not dead for life. But for a runner, is end of its usefulness for that runner. And as individuals, you probably don't have the networks to think, you know, I've got a pair of shoes, they're still okay. Who do I send them to? Right. And I guess that's the bit where we are trying to tap into to say, there are ways of redistributing those shoes to people who really want them and need them.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Right, right. Mm-hmm.

Tony: and we can do that on your behalf. But again, that is a process that needs funding and I think that is the next challenge.

Kamal Datta: And so where you're finding or are you hitting some walls as you are like, the big brands doing enough to support like what you're trying to do with the collection of the side of the business, right? Or is it buy more marketing too strong in this case?

Tony: Look, I can't say the same for all brands, but some brands are really wanting to do the right thing. Now, we have some brands that support us brilliantly. We have others that actually their structures are the limiting factor in this. So for example, they may be operating in the UK, but their head office might be in Europe. And therefore,

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Tony: you know, ⁓ we can't do this because this is a European decision. Well, hang on, but the problem is happening in the UK. So we need to have a decision about what we do with shoes here. You know, and then there are those that are, yes, we are sustainable. Yes, we want to do the right thing. You know, no questions asked. How do we make this happen? And I've had a few of those conversations, right? A few people that have seen me talk about jog on stage have heard me. be very tearful because this is really emotional stuff right we are trying to do the right thing and when somebody says I believe you I'm right behind you Rick how can I help that's just like that that's that's that's phenomenal and but it's not the same with every brand for sure

Kamal Datta: Yeah. I see, I see. And if you want to look at a future five, 10, 20 years down the road, and if you want to see that, you know, I like to... Give an example of which I know I have read the story or the case study of Nespresso, right? The man is the the life cycle of every part that goes it can it's built in kind of the way that man is the life cycle of it Do you see a tomorrow where? Brands are actually taking care of the whole life cycle of their product I mean you can start with shoes which you can see now every 300 to 500 you have to get a new pair and you have to discard one

Tony: I think we can get close. I am not yet of the mind that you could shred some shoes at one end and put whatever that comes out at the other end back into a process that creates another shoe. ⁓ So I'm yet to be convinced that we can make that happen. But I do think we could take whatever comes out of the shredding process.

Kamal Datta: Yeah. I see. Mm-hmm.

Tony: and turn them into something much more useful. Whatever that is, we don't know yet, but it might not be a pair of shoes. So I don't think we'll see a full circularity, but I do think we will see brands being more responsible for what happens to their shoes at the end of life, because I think consumers will demand that more and more as we go on.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. I see. So you're saying that the awareness that the consumer level is increasing or the expectation from the manufacturer that, hey, we should probably think about the afterlife as well. ⁓ You touched on a area, don't know if you to go into detail, but I think I'll ask the question and see how far you want to go. ⁓ This is the fast part when you sort it out for reuse purpose, right? Does putting a pre-loved pair of shoes on someone's feet change the social landscape of the sport? I mean, you touched on a couple of years. I want to see if you want to double click on that. I think you mentioned that perspective. Yeah.

Tony: Yeah, yeah, I'm happy to. I'm happy to. think I... There's two things. First of all is I never tell in detail people where the shoes go. I never name schools. I don't name organizations. I don't name, I never identify anyone because that creates a stigma, stigmatism, right?

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, Yeah.

Tony: So let's take that out. The realities are that, you know, there are kids going to school today who will turn up to their PE lessons who do not have shoes to go and do PE, right? There are people around the world today who don't have shoes on their feet, right? And this is in 2026. So, you know, it doesn't matter for me about

Kamal Datta: Right.

Tony: kind of aspiration, you it's not about creating an athlete, but putting a pair of shoes on the kids feet tomorrow, going to school could generate the next, you know, champion. But if it doesn't, I'm happy with the fact that at least they get a chance to go and be active and do sports and be integrated. And then the other thing is that you talk about sort of social integration and it's kind of social cohesion. The one thing we all need is to walk.

Kamal Datta: Yeah, you never know, yeah. Right, right.

Tony: Right? Made to be. ⁓ A good pair of shoes, just take, it's one less thing to think about. Whatever that means. And however you get that, whether you've gone and bought a secondhand pair or whether you've gone and taken it from a charity shop, it is a critical component of us being mobile. And if we can make sure that that happens, I think everyone should be content with that.

Kamal Datta: Right, right, right. Right, right. Now that's a very good point, Tony, and thank you. So what's next for JogOn? I know you said a couple of projects you've been working on, and it came a long way in the last couple of years. What's next for you and JogOn?

Tony: Well, think a couple of things. One is that more of the same. I think our work is not done right, far from it. I'd like to get all the brands, at least 80 % of the major brands on board with funding the recycling process for the UK. I think that would just be phenomenal. And that would be a wonderful legacy to leave behind. Secondly, is if we can do it here and we are quite a small country, imagine what we can do globally, right? Because if this problem is, this is not unique to us. I mean, how many runners do you have in the States? You go state by state, you go national, it's going to be huge. So there are big problems worth tackling. I would love to be part of that journey to kind of see it evolve beyond our shores.

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. Right. Mm-hmm. That's good to know. Thanks for sharing again, Tony. Let's move to a quick five round to see a couple of areas that I'll hit you out and see how you ⁓ think about it. What is the strongest or the strangest thing you've ever found inside a donated shoe box?

Tony: I'll give you two. I've had a pair of stilettos, right? Like I do not advertise that I collect high heel shoes, right? ⁓ ⁓ the one hand, and on the other side, people will often send me like ⁓ bags of sweets, little notes. ⁓ call them Tony's love letters ⁓ they are brilliant. And I get these little sugar rush sweets every now and again when I'm sitting there doing the shoes. So basically amazing.

Kamal Datta: Okay. ⁓ That's cool. I see that in your website. think you put that, know, put some note. ⁓ I think you're referring to that. And then especially people do send it to you in a box. ⁓ If you could force shoe manufacturer to change one thing about how shoes are made today to make your life easier, what would it be?

Tony: ⁓ I think, I mean, I don't know enough about the making process to kind of really give you a serious answer. I think more broadly, if what I would want them to do is to embrace this partnership that says we're going to take some responsibility of what happens to the shoes when you, the runner, have had enough of

Kamal Datta: Mm-hmm. Okay, related to that, ⁓ you are a runner yourself, so level with that. How many pairs of shoes do you currently own?

Tony: Now my ones, I've got two and they're both from the warehouse.

Kamal Datta: Okay. So it's pre-loved ones. Okay. ⁓ that's good. You are eating your own dog food that you call it, which is great.

Tony: Yep. Well, I mean, why wouldn't I, right? can have a new pair of shoes every day if I wanted to.

Kamal Datta: That is very true because you're saying it, I think you're sorting it every week you're saying, right? Yeah, yeah. Well, Tony, what you're doing is literally keeping the ground we run on cleaner. Where can people find a collection point or get their own community involved on JogOn?

Tony: Absolutely. Yeah, just go on the website, jogonagain.com. Most of the details are there. A list of our partners. There's a little interactive map. You can see where most of the collection points are. And just get in touch. I know throughout this conversation I've referred to we. There isn't a we. There isn't a big team. It's just me. So if you send an email on the website, expect a reply, but don't expect a quick one because it's just me.

Kamal Datta: Thank you so much Tony. I think you're doing something amazing. One million pair of shoes keeping you away from the landfill. So I think that's great start and I'm sure you're going to figure out how to make it two million and beyond ⁓ And next time as you lace up, think about those shoes are going and we'll see you on the trail. And thank you once again Tony.

Tony: Thank you, Kamau.